The American War

The American War

March 5, 2009  |  Featured, General, Travel

Intro­duc­tion

They say the bet­ter part of trav­el­ling is meet­ing the people from the coun­tries you visit.  They do not say how much that meet­ing will affect you, neither how heart­break­ing such encoun­ters can be.  The first time I met a one legged man in Laos, while vis­it­ing COPE – the char­ity for the war injured, I asked him how he lost his leg?

The American’s took it,” he replied.

What can one say to that? 

Such emo­tion­ally con­front­ing sights are com­mon in South East Asia if you let your­self see them.  Too many of the people who come here simply gloss over the lives of the people they encounter.  Too many go home and say, “Oh South East Asia is alright, beau­ti­ful coun­tryside… but so many beg­gars!”  Without giv­ing any thought to what this means and what causes people to beg on the streets.  Beg, not because they want money for a drug addic­tion, simply because there is no gov­ern­mental help for the war-wounded and hav­ing no legs, fin­gers or arms is a lifelong bar­rier to entry to almost anywhere.

We have spent the last three months trav­el­ling all over SEA with our eyes wide open.  In fact, we decided to go all the way and vis­ited all the dis­abled work­shops, children’s orphan­ages and museums that we could.  We have met with Cam­bod­i­ans miss­ing limbs, Chil­dren Orphaned by AID’s, Viet­namese who fought against the US and Lao­tians strug­gling to come to terms with their rav­aged coun­try.  Along the way, we have vis­ited many of the actual areas attacked by or affected by the war, spoken with war pho­to­graph­ers who cap­tured the images that define the war and run our hands over the pock­marked remains of war equip­ment.  This is not very hard to do.  Simply visit Laos, Cam­bodia or Viet­nam and you can­not help but see if you only look.

How­ever, the res­ults are not pretty.

 

Read more by click­ing here:

Through all this I have held off com­ment­ing on the war, known to those in Viet­nam as “The Amer­ican War,” until I actu­ally left the area.  This is because mil­lions of people in South East Asia are still feel­ing the effects of the con­flict every­day and by being there I was in danger of miss­ing per­spect­ive on the big-picture.  I wanted to be far enough away from it all to be able to get some con­text before I commented.

That is why this blog entry exists.  We left the area in Feb­ru­ary, bound for India, and after much dis­cus­sion between us, I feel I can prop­erly write about the Amer­ican War.

His­tor­ical Outline

Every­one knows about the war in Viet­nam, right?  Wrong.  Before com­ing here, 90% of the inform­a­tion I had about the Viet­nam War was cre­ated by the US movie industry.  I grew up watch­ing Pla­toon, Ham­burger Hill and The Deer Hunter.  To me the Viet­namese were slant-eyed night­mares who charged the noble US grunts fight­ing for free­dom in the jungle.  Before I left home, I had neither any idea where Laos was nor had I known the tra­gic his­tory of Cam­bodia (all I knew was that it didn’t look like Kansas).

If you are in the same situ­ation, here is a quick out­line of what actu­ally happened in easy to under­stand steps. 

Caveat.

Please keep in mind that while I do have some qual­i­fic­a­tions as a his­tor­ian, I have not attemp­ted to be defin­it­ive here in any sense other than inten­tions. Some of the num­bers happened at the same time and some may be out of order.  I have linked all my sources in the end­notes of the article.

The War

1. 22px-Flag_of_France.svg The French took over a lot of SEA apart from Malay­sia, which was Brit­ish owned thanks to a Brit­ish adven­turer who had his balls shot off.

2. 22px-Flag_of_France.svg The Japan­ese invaded in WWII and “kicked them all out”.

3. 22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg The Brit­ish, US (via sea), Aus­tralasi­ans’ and free people of SEA defeated the Japanese.

4. 22px-Flag_of_France.svg The French tried to get their empire back.

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The French land­ing back in SEA were con­fid­ent of victory

5. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg They were defeated by the Viet­namese in battle.

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A sol­dier begs for the end to battle

6. 22px-Flag_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China.svg Mean­while the Chinese went communist.

7. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg The US inven­ted the idea that since China was next to the USSR and SEA was next to China, a dan­ger­ous “Dom­ino Effect” might spread Com­mun­ism as far south as tak­ing over Aus­tralia.  This shows a mighty mis­un­der­stand­ing of the Aus­tralian temperament.

8. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg Ho Chi Min declares his coun­try sep­ar­ate and his view communist.

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Ho Chi Min (Centre in white)

9. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg The King of Cam­bodia declares his lean­ings com­mun­ist after a long visit to China.

10. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg All parties agreed to avoid war or get involved.

11. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg All parties ignored this agree­ment and the US star­ted “advising” South Vietnam.

12. 22px-Flag_of_South_Vietnam.svg The South Viet­nam régime is blood thirsty and even uses the guil­lot­ine. Much like the reports of the North then.

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The guil­lot­ine of Deim

13. 22px-Flag_of_South_Vietnam.svg The South Viet­nam leader is assas­sin­ated, which shocked Kennedy.

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Kennedy and US Defence Sec­ret­ary Robert Mcnamara

14. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg Kennedy is assassinated.

15. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg The US either engin­eer, or allows to hap­pen, the Gulf of Tonkin incid­ent secur­ing a declar­a­tion of war.

16. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg The US strategy in the war is sim­ilar to the “Shock and Awe” tac­tic used in the 2nd Gulf War.  They believe that the com­mun­ists will even­tu­ally quit.  Thus, it becomes a war of attri­tion.  This later proved a wrong move (see endnotes).

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A US base comes under attack

17. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg The Viet­namese do not give up and build a very long road that weaves in and out of Viet­nam and Laos, which allows them to go around the north/south divide in Viet­nam.  This is known as the “Ho Chi Min Trail.”

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When the trail was blown up the VC simply car­ried their equipment

18. 22px-Flag_of_Laos.svg The Laos army tries to stop this and the Viet­namese start a revolution/uprising/civil-war in Laos.

19. 22px-Flag_of_Laos.svg Laos’ king asks the US to help after being left some­what in the lurch by the French.  They start a secret CIA led war in Laos by using the high­land Hmong tribes as sol­diers sup­por­ted by the US air­force (dir­ec­ted by the fam­ous Ravens). This war is against the Pathet Lao com­mun­ists sup­plied by the Vietnamese.

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One of the Raven spot­ter planes

20. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg The US uses most of their air­force in Laos to bomb the HCM Trail.  In fact, the bomb they crap out of it with cluster bombs, high explos­ives, soap and any­thing else they can think of.  Noth­ing works to stem the flow and many of the bombs do not explode.  The rest they use against the Pathet Lao around the Plain of Jars.

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Bomb­ing runs in Vietnam

21. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg The US gov­ern­ment says to the people that the war will soon be won; the com­mun­ists are weakened and can­not fight anymore.

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The US pres­id­ent John­son talks the talk

22. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg In real­ity the com­mun­ists threaten the Khe San base to such an extent the US com­mand­ers plan on using short range nukes to defend it.

23. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg The Khe San offens­ive turns out to be a ruse by the Viet­namese and they have been secretly dig­ging tun­nels to Sai­gon (the Cu Chi tun­nels).  On the eve of the Tet cel­eb­ra­tions (New Year – around mid Jan) the Viet­namese attack every­where from these tunnels.

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A US sol­dier orders up help dur­ing the Tet offensive

24. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg These res­ult­ing battles are all won by the US, but the pub­lic real­ise that they have been lied to and the US have to pull out.

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Nixon describes the pull out of troops

25. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg Without US sup­port Viet­nam falls to the HCM forces.

26. 22px-Flag_of_Laos.svg Laos falls to the Pathet Lao and the Hmong are all killed or flee around the world.  Many now live in the US.  Some, amaz­ingly, still live in the Laos hills avoid­ing the Lao­tian army.

27. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg Cam­bodia is in civil war at this point and the com­mun­ist Khmer Rouge win the con­flict in many ways thanks to the king (who is still in China) pub­lic­ally sup­port­ing them.

28. 22px-Flag_of_Thailand.svg The Thai / Cam­bod­ian bor­der is mined.  A lot.

29. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg The Khmer Rouge move into the cap­ital of Cam­bodia amid cel­eb­ra­tions, but they have another agenda.  They announce that all the people must leave the city imme­di­ately.  Any­one who argues is shot on the spot.  Those hid­ing in the French embassy are forced to leave and shot.

30. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg The Khmer Rouge forces the people of the cit­ies of Cam­bodia to work in the fields as farm­ers.  Any­one who argues is shot.

31. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg The Khmer Rouge leader starts round­ing up people who do not fit his plans, basic­ally edu­cated people.  Has them all ser­i­ously tor­tured and then taken out to fields and beaten around the head until dead.  This is a stag­ger­ing amount of people.

32. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg The Khmer Rouge then tries to take over South­ern Vietnam.

33. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg The Viet­namese invade Cam­bodia, knock over the Khmer Rouge in two weeks and turn Cam­bodia into a vas­sal state only allowed to buy products from the Viet­namese (much like Laos then).

34. 22px-Flag_of_Laos.svg Thou­sands of Lao­tians start to die from Unex­ploded US Ordin­ances (UXO’s) every year.

35. 22px-Flag_of_Cambodia.svg Thou­sands of Cam­bod­i­ans step on land mines every year.

36. 22px-Flag_of_Vietnam.svg Thou­sands of Viet­namese start devel­op­ing strange symp­toms and hav­ing chil­dren with very ser­i­ous birth defects.  This is traced to “Agent Orange” that the US dropped on the jungles of Viet­nam.  “Agent Orange” con­tains some of the worst ingredi­ents ima­gin­able. Top of the list is Dioxin – look it up.  Its claimed effect was to defo­li­ate the areas hid­ing VC troops (Chu Chi for example), but the ingredi­ents basic­ally kill all life, not just trees.

37. 22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg Aus­tralia does not become communist.

That is the basics.  There is much more to it than that, but this is enough for you to be going on with.  What is clear from the his­tory of the area is that the US hates Com­mun­ism.  Hates it to such an extent that they almost nuked the coun­try they were try­ing to defend to stop it.  That’s some hate.

Why?

What is so wrong with Communism?

Well, noth­ing in par­tic­u­lar, but it is essen­tially a people sup­posedly without rich and poor.  Equal­ity.  Which doesn’t seem so bad until you real­ise how screwed up some of the attempts to imple­ment the idea have been. 

Take Cam­bodia.  There, the Khmer Rouge were inspired by Maoist Com­mun­ism and yet decided that it was not going far enough.  They tried to force the entire Cam­bod­ian people back into a simple farm­ing life, a basic exist­ence, by shoot­ing any­one who said any­thing against it. 

Altern­at­ively, take Laos, the Pathet Lao won the war and changed the coun­try forever.  Con­sequently, Laos is one of the world’s poorest coun­tries; it has elec­tions but only one party is on the ballot. 

The issue is not so much that a share-alike egal­it­arian cul­ture is a bad idea, only that it has not been suc­cess­fully imple­men­ted yet (Ker­ala in India not with­stand­ing– it’s only a state).  To the US though, it is more than this.  The US is essen­tially designed as a coun­try that rewards striv­ing for wealth.  The idea that a man is due the full value of his work in the pur­suit of hap­pi­ness.  This is the “Amer­ican Dream.”  What it leads to is a coun­try split between those who have and those who have not.  Those who have: have a lot, and those who have not: have bug­ger all. 

The gov­ern­ment is highly influ­enced by those who have and they were not about to give it all up to those who have not, right!?  Bingo.  The people who have won the “Amer­ican Dream” deeply fear to lose their cut of the world’s profit.  This fear under­pins almost all US aggres­sion around the world.  The rest is just mar­ket­ing; the pick­ing of a bogy­man and stick­ing it to him.

The After­math

The after­math of the Amer­ican War is the greater tragedy. 

Cam­bodia

The Khmer Rouge was one of the most bloodthirsty mur­der­ing gov­ern­ments in his­tory.  One really has to get Bib­lical to match them.  Would such a group have pre­vailed if not for the war?  This is per­haps some­thing that no one could have pre­dicted.  How­ever, their leg­acy is still with us today; any­one over 35 in Cam­bodia lived through the Khmer Rouge gov­ern­ment.  That in itself is an achieve­ment and the scars are every­where.  There is hon­estly some­thing in the eyes, some­thing in the atti­tude of Cam­bod­i­ans, which is not yet healed; the entire coun­try is still emo­tion­ally broken.  Mostly, this is due to the lack of justice done on the Khmer lead­ers.  Pol Pot died under house arrest escap­ing a trial, and even the man who ran the Tuol Sleng Centre (also known as S-21) has not been tried yet.  The ringlead­ers of the Khmer Rouge are all dying of old age before being judged.  Its not that put­ting octo­gen­ari­ans into jail is going to pro­tect any­one, but the coun­try needs to judge these people as wrong.  Only then can the heal­ing begin. 

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The hor­ror of S-21 and the Killing Fields

So what’s stop­ping it?  The Khmer Rouge have simply faded into a new skin: that of the Com­mun­ist Party.  The tri­als are there­fore all being held up and so justice and heal­ing for the Cam­bod­ian people is still a long way off.

When vis­it­ing Cam­bodia, a num­ber of things tug at your heartstrings.  That is, after they are through tug­ging your arms.  The whole coun­try is awash with chil­dren who are forced to work.  In many cases this is a genu­ine need for the fam­ily to sup­ple­ment its income, but it does not change the fact that these chil­dren are every­where.  Every­where but school.

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Child work­ers sell theirs wares and ser­vices to a
West­ern Lady

The second thing also tugs at you.  At your ankles.  So many people have lost limbs through step­ping on mines, or though the war, that you encounter them all the time.  In cer­tain places you will encounter one every ten minutes.  Cesca and I went to a per­form­ance by an inval­ided act­ing troop in Siem Reap and saw firsthand the men­tal effects and stigma of hav­ing such injur­ies in a coun­try without a social ser­vice.  Beg­ging becomes their only hope.

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The dis­abled act­ing troop in Siem Reap

Thus, the cycle per­petu­ates itself.  In fact, for the chil­dren at least, selling brace­lets, mas­sages and them­selves on the beaches of Cam­bodia is a real career choice.  I remem­ber Cesca ask­ing one little girl what she wanted to do when she was grown up.  “Doc­tor!” came the reply.  Cesca was moved enough to buy the proffered item; why not to help a girl in her ambi­tions?  Twenty minutes later another girl came up and she wanted to be a doc­tor as well.  So did the next one after that.  It seems that “becom­ing a doc­tor” means more sales because West­ern people respect doc­tors a lot.

Small things like that work on you.  They gnaw.  Cam­bod­i­ans are great people– friendly, help­ful and smart.  They need a break, but for now, they are broken.

Laos

The US really wanted to save Laos. I say that now because this is the only redeem­ing qual­ity for what they did to this coun­try.  It was akin to sav­ing a man from rob­bery by shoot­ing him in the head.  In addi­tion, offi­cial his­tory has not been kind to them on this score– the Pathet Lao, now the gov­ern­ment, has very subtly changed the ver­sion of events in its offi­cial his­tor­ies.  As far as they are con­cerned the US were fight­ing against the Lao­tians, not for them.  Such a dicho­tomy par­tially explains the over-bombing of Laos, mak­ing it the most bombed coun­try in the world, when in fact the truth is far worse. 

The US bombed the hell out of Laos to try to save it.

Of all the coun­tries to suf­fer from the Amer­ican War, Laos is the one left with the longest leg­acy.  The entire east­ern side of the coun­try is littered with unex­ploded bombs of all types.  Even mon­strously large B52 bombs are reg­u­larly dug up. On one video we watched they found two in the road between two schools.  Both armed, both ready to blow if knocked.  Aside from the big stuff, Laos was cluster bombed to hell and back.  Cluster muni­tions, called bom­bies by the chil­dren of Laos, are small cricket ball sized bombs of vary­ing types. 

IMG_0904

A col­lec­tion of deac­tiv­ate cluster bombs (bom­bies) made into an art exhib­i­tion at COPE

The idea is that the cluster con­tainer opens and dis­perses these bom­bies over a large area.  The prob­lem is that they often did not explode; in order to prime the basic type requires a num­ber of rota­tions.  If they hit a paddy field before the required count or snag a tree and stop spin­ning then they will often not explode.  That is until picked up or dis­turbed by a local.  Then they will blast out 200 red-hot ball bear­ings in all dir­ec­tions.  Mixed in with such devices were all sorts of ‘spe­cial’ bom­bies.  Some are smal­ler, some are meaner, but by far the most ter­ri­fy­ing is the Spider Mine.  On land­ing, this bom­bie shoots out trip wires in four dir­ec­tions and blows up the first thing that crosses them–

Usu­ally a child.

You see, Laos is so poor that scrap metal is worth ser­i­ous money.  Little chil­dren all want to get the bounty on scrap and so reg­u­larly hunt for Bom­bies.  This is too often a tale with the most tra­gic end­ing ima­gin­able.  I can­not think of any­thing worse than chil­dren blown to bits by cluster bombs dropped by an ally in order to pro­tect their culture. 

That is exactly what hap­pens every day here.

Laos was the coun­try that stole our hearts in SEA.  It has an inno­cence about it that belies the fact that a fair per­cent­age of the pop­u­la­tion is liv­ing with the threat of being blown to bits every single time they step out their door.  It is test­a­ment to their inno­cence that they do not real­ise that this is not normal.

Per­haps they are wak­ing up.  The gov­ern­ment of Laos is a clas­sic East­ern Block Com­mun­ism but now with cap­it­al­ist over­tones.  The open­ing of the coun­try to inter­na­tional trade has star­ted a chain reac­tion that will even­tu­ally lead to change, even if that change is viol­ent.  Neces­sity will drive it.  For now Laos is a won­drous mix of coun­tryside Asia unchanged for 100 years and French inspired food and drink.  The beer in Laos is one of the very best in the entire world and in the cap­ital you can get a bril­liant steak din­ner for pocket change. 

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The simple Mekong Life – how long will it last?

The vis­itor num­bers are increas­ing and it will not be long before this travel trade, prop­erly dir­ec­ted, will make a real dif­fer­ence.  Much of the con­ver­sa­tion held between back­pack­ers is on the sub­ject of the travel trade in Laos.  The ques­tion is, “will the money made from travel affect Laos in a good or bad way?”  Already the town of Vang Vieng is given over to sup­ply­ing tour­ists with drink, drugs, end­less epis­odes of Friends and river­front clubbing.

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Lao T-Shirts, great but only for tourists.

To those harmed by bombs it is already too late, but organ­isa­tions such as MAG (Mine Action Group) are try­ing to de-bomb Laos by 2012.  On our visit to their headquar­ters, they showed us a com­puter drawn map of the amount of Unex­ploded Ordin­ance in Laos.  Each bomb sortie was a red dot.  The entire east­ern side of the coun­try was red with so many dots that they all blen­ded together.  You can see the data your­self online using Google Earth.  We donated all we could to MAG and hope they achieve their pro­jec­ted clear date as each year adds more misery to this already burdened country.

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Down­time in Vang Vieng

Viet­nam

Vietnam’s issue is not with UXO’s – although they do exist and like Cam­bodia, you should never walk off the path, nor is it to do with soci­etal men­tal dam­age.  In Viet­nam, they have sor­ted through the Amer­ican War and put the blood very firmly on the hands of the US.  In Ho Chi Min City (Sai­gon) there is a very good museum to the war that pulls no punches to tell you what the US did to these people.  How­ever, it did not break them.  The Viet­namese are proud of their achieve­ments.  Proud to have won what, was from their point of view, a war of inde­pend­ence.  I could not help but be impressed by both their atti­tude to it and indeed their indus­tri­ous atti­tude to the future.  So, what is the dam­age here?

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Basho con­siders facing one of these mon­ster US tanks in battle – they are scary enough when decommissioned.

Two things. Firstly, one man you meet fought against the US, the next fought for them.  This has a divid­ing effect on the coun­try and while the north/south bor­der has phys­ic­ally gone, the men­tal bor­der is still there.  Still, that is no worse than in Eng­land.  The second, and far worse thing, is the way the world see’s Viet­nam is through US war movies.  I watched Rambo cut down mul­ti­tudes of evil VC in the Rambo: Part 2 movie.  I saw Pla­toon por­tray the VC as simple tar­gets.  I have seen them dehu­man­ised repeatedly.  Even the films that try and “apo­lo­gise” for the war, like The Deer Hunter, shows the VC in a way that would be scorned if it were – say – the Japanese.

I have seen a man in Ho Chi Min take his chil­dren for a walk to the same park every day.  Feed them break­fast on the grass, play with them and watch over them.  He did not fit a ste­reo­type I was force fed all my life, he was simply a good father.

This Hol­ly­wood movie mis­rep­res­ent­a­tion leaves the Viet­namese with a lot of catch­ing up to do even today.  I lost count of the num­ber of people who warned me against the Viet­namese cul­ture.  Many said that they were rude, hos­tile and not friendly.  This malign­ment was quickly ban­ished on arrival.  I have to say that the Viet­namese are some of the nicest people we have yet met on our jour­ney and all through the coun­try the same smil­ing faces greeted us.  We felt very wel­come, even when chat­ting to a man who had lost his arm dur­ing the war.  They are proud of the war.  Such wounds are worn with pride here.

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The mod­ern Tet cel­eb­ra­tion has a real buz about it.  It is everyone’s birth­day, the New Year and the “surge that changed the war” all rolled into one. Great fireworks.

Con­clu­sion

In 50 years time, will we be writ­ing posts like this about Iraq?  The amount chaos left in South East Asia is truly tra­gic.  Death and destruc­tion to pre­vent a the­ory, a the­ory that said if SEA falls to the “com­mies” that “west­ern” people may be next.  The real fear the US had was a fear of about its own soci­etal core, it is after all a very young coun­try and such upheavals always seem more pos­sible.  It is no grat­i­fic­a­tion that the US even turned on its own people to flush out pos­sible com­mun­ists with the advent of the “Reds under the bed” and McCarthy­ism.  It is, I guess, just another part of the tragedy of the Amer­ican War in South East Asia.

Regards,

 

Basho

 

 

 

 

 

 

End­notes:

Where the note is marked “(WIKI)”, it is linked to Wiki­pe­dia.  Note that this bril­liant web­site is not the be all and end all of fac­tual inform­a­tion on any­thing.  It is, how­ever, a very good place to start.

 

 

 

1. French Indoch­ina (WIKI) and Flash­man and the Great Game.  

2. Quote by Basho’s Nan when describ­ing the war to Basho as a kid.

3. Visit to the river Kwai and the Aus­tralian War Museums near Hells Pass.

4. Fall, Bern­ard B. Street Without Joy: The French Débâcle In Indochina

5.Battle of Dien Bien Phu (WIKI) – Also note that this battle was not quite the mas­sacre the cinema has later claimed, but the French did get a ser­i­ous ham­mer­ing and the VC real­ised that in a straight fight they could some­times win.

6. Visit to the China Exped­i­tion in Singapore’s Museum of Humanity.

7. “The Fog of War” doc­u­ment­ary, avail­able on Google Video

8.Pro­clam­a­tion of  Inde­pend­ence of the Demo­cratic Repub­lic of Vietnam

9. Doc­u­ment­ary foot­age from film shown in Siem Reap’s Night Market.

10.Geneva Con­fer­ence (1954) (WIKI)

11. “The Fog of War” doc­u­ment­ary, avail­able on Google Video

12. I have seen the actual Guil­lot­ine in the War Rem­nants Museum in HCM City.

13. War Rem­nants Museum HCM

14. Con­trary to the fam­ous movie on this shoot­ing, it was very pos­sible and actu­ally quite easy to get all the shots off from Oswald’s rifle.  I have seen a doc­u­ment­ary that shows this.

15.  The whole mess of the Gulf of Tonkin is one that was only cleared up in 2005 when the NSA pub­lished what happened.  In the “The Fog of War” doc­u­ment­ary, then US Defence Sec­ret­ary, Robert Mcnamara admit­ted that he received dif­fer­ing reports.  The upshot is that the incid­ent gave an excel­lent pre­text to war.

16. “The Fog of War” doc­u­ment­ary, avail­able on Google Video, has then US Defence Sec­ret­ary Robert Mcnamara, explain­ing this point and his mis­con­cep­tion at the time.  He also admits that he didn’t under­stand the Viet­namese view until a fate­ful meet­ing with a VC com­mander in Europe in the 90’s

17. The end of which is the Cu Chi Tunnels.

18. Lao­tian Civil War (WIKI) or the CIA World Book (A bril­liant resource)  

19. “The Ravens”

20. The data on the bomb­ing runs is avail­able on Google Earth; I was shown this data at MAG in Vien­tiane and taken through what it meant.

21. ““We are begin­ning to win this struggle” asser­ted Vice Pres­id­ent Hubert H. Humphrey on NBC’s “Today Show” in mid-November” (WIKI) and West­mo­re­land, Wil­liam C. A Sol­dier Reports. New York: Doubleday.  I read this in a book shop in Seim Reap.

22. Tour guide at Cu Chi tun­nels, Lonely Planet Laos and Wikipedia.

23. As above

24. Polit­ical tides wax and wane, but it is clear that the spin put on the fig­ures by West­mo­re­land back­fired.  See the entry on Richard Nixon at (WIKI)

25. “The Fog of War”

26. “The Ravens” and Lao­tian Civil War (WIKI) also Laos Memorial 

27. The king of Cam­bodia at this point sup­por­ted the Khmer, once he real­ised what they were really like he changed his mind.  On video foot­age I saw, he was very tear­ful on the subject.

28.UNICEF. “The Leg­acy of Landmines”

29. Tour guide at S21, Wiki­pe­dia, Video foot­age seen in Phom Pen

30. Visit to S21.  We met one of the hand full of sur­viv­ors when there, it was a good feel­ing to shake his hand.

31. Visit to S21.

32. This is claimed by the Viet­namese, as the south­ern part of the coun­try – the Mekong Delta – was ori­gin­ally Cam­bod­ian and shares much com­mon ground with them even now (such as their fla­vour of Buddhism being Theravada when the Viet­namese are Mahayana).

33.Cam­bod­ian Viet­namese War (WIKI)

34. Stat­ist­ics of COPE and MAG, plus the video “Bombies”

35.UNICEF. “The Leg­acy of Landmines”

36. Photo evid­ence in the War Rem­nants Museum.

37. Struth!

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  • mr t durden
    i'm glad you found the time and acsess to reply. i'm slightly cross with you, in an amused way however, because after declaring in a loud voice that im not hiding behind my computer, i find my self scurrying back behind it to continue our discussion... i feel somehow thats not fair play on your part... lol.

    on a side note do you have a general comments area? i looked but couldnt find one, and i'm enjoying our chat but worrying about filling up your american war article with my toot.

    i realised on reading your last missive that we look on things differently in a fundamental way. this in no way implies that either of us is wrong... the world would be very sad if we all thought the same.

    i dislike change. i am in no way afraid of it, and fully understand that it is inevitable. by i will not change with it. the world and its changes can consider me the infinite lever, and my family and freinds are the solid place to stand.

    my responce to change has always been to play my strentghs, to dig in and fortify, to hold the line, no matter how many zulu's there may be..

    ( forgive me that, i could not resist the pun)


    it seems to me, and this is in no way a criticism, that this travel of yours is sort of like a big mirror, in which you look at both the world and your selves, and by doing so can see if maybe you need a new suit, or just a new tie and hair cut, or if in fact you need to metaphorically get down the down the gym and spa and have a full makeover.

    i liked your bee hive analogy.... i suppose i didnt dodge it... i caught it and held it and i'm hoping to god it really is bees not wasps because i really could do with there being honey at the end.

    i don't own my house, but i understand the ties that bind me anyway. i am working a job i dont like, to buy sh*t i don't need. i'm not going to be a film star or rich, and i am angry about that. but there is no club to go to.

    when it comes right down to it i took the decsision to hold on, even when there is nothing left except the will that says to me hold on.

    i hope in honesty, that both our courses of actions turn out to be right.

    good luck in your continueing adventures... don't feel you have to post back instantly... i check your website often, so i'l be around when you post next.

    ( on a personal note, kudos on being able to get comments on uncertainty theory in the same paragraph as a Neitzche quote. if i was a cat in a box, i'd even more inpressed than i am.)


    CESCA

    i won't dance, don't ask me.....

    (do you see what i did there?)
  • BASHO SAYS:

    Sorry for not replying earlier, but web access is sporadic to say the least.

    Perhaps the Company Jolly's I have been on have been different from yours (I have been on many), but there is a few important fundamental differences between them and this journey of ours. Namely, they are really work (don't fool yourself that they are not) and also that someone else is paying for them.

    This may seem small but it reaches to the true heart of the matter and leads me to a note about our careers. Namely, I have been telling everyone for ages that this financial crisis was going to happen. Few listened. We were on the crux of buying a house just out of our reach and lashing ourselves to the grindstone for the next 30 years. But something stopped us. It was a number of things really, but we suddenly realised the bubble was going to pop and so we left partially to avoid it.

    By avoiding the trap we have saved ourselves from a massive drop on our house value (perhaps even over the cost of this 'jolly') and Cesca would have been looking down the gun barrel of a possible redundency (being that she was a professional creative). There are other reasons, like being a tired of London, my having not had a year out before/after Uni (mine was the last year to get the grant) and more personal reasons. But the one we tell everyone is this: We were at the right point in our lives to do it. I have no house and no children. I left my staff and department in the best possible shape for my sucessor. I have not got the ties that bind yet.

    I too am focussed on my family, which at the moment is Cesca and I, and we wanted to see the world and get some perspective before adding more members to it (by having children of our own). Our trip will be an education for our children, perhaps an open minded inspiration, and the blog is the diary that proves this. You see, the reason we are disagreeing here is entirely embodied by your labeling of what we are doing as"sight seeing"

    For me, what we are doing is not sight seeing. We are getting a sense of perspective away form the burdens of home. The reason why we didn't drop the travel and come home is easy; why would I, having avoided the falling bees nest, put my hand back in it? By the time I come home, things may actually be better. This is why I called your view narrow minded, by your own perspective you are suffering in this climate and need to naturally worry about the things in your life. Some of which you need, like a family and some of which you have told yourself you need, like owing a house. Never the less, this is only a matter of the perspective you have on your life. I wanted to gain some larger sense of perspective. This I have achieved by seeing the world out there beyond the headlines.

    For example, a week ago I was in Calcutta and saw a women sleeping rough on the streets. Perhaps nothing new there in London or eslewhere. However, this women was naked save for a ripped sack and sleeping in a main throughfare with everyone stepping over her. She was filthy, destitute to the point of death and possibly mad. When you see someone like this you start to gain some insight into the value of the problems you used to feel burdened with, worried about and focussed on.

    We are on essentially a spiritual journey of descovery. The world is a big place and I have started to think that the over-focussed worry about the economics of home that used to be my daily mantra were not of such importance after all. I am not worried about coming home and finding a job. Such questions would be with me no matter if I left or not. Perhaps things will be better when we return? Perhaps not. One thing that will have changed is me.

    You see, you can't travel like we are traveling without changing yourself. It is a fundamental of science that you cannot observe a thing without changing it, but Quantum Theory has now learned what I already knew: that you change too. As Neitzche said: 'Stare too long into the abyss and the abyss stares back into you'. I am not trying to come back to the same life. That would be stepping backwards. I can only step forwards and the future is essentially as irrelivent as the past. I am trying to live in the now. Tomorrow... who knows what will happen? There are far worse things than unimployment.

    My reporting of Laos might not directly affect your life, but perhaps you should take a moment to consider those much less fortunate than you. If you go to work, you wont dig up a bomb and die. Compassion for others outside your own life is the key to finding a sense of peace with the world. I sense that the news of home is getting to you. Google "fnords" and read the Wiki entry. Conquring your fear about what is going to happen is another step to finding peace.

    As for courage, I will define it like this:

    "Courage is the choice to do what is difficult or fearful."

    It is different from bravery,

    "Bravery is the doing of the difficult or fearful with no choice (other than oblivion)."

    Couragous actions have to have choice. Going to work, is that a choice or not? If you think not, if you see it as a burden to be carried, something you have no choice about; then you are only being brave. If, however, you are able to see your choices and then act upon them, despite the fears attached to action, then your being couragous. Leaving home and living out of our bags, giving up a sucessful career and letting go of all but a few of my possesstions did take courage. And like you say, I knew that it needed to be done. I worried about it, but when the time came I realised that I was putting down my burden and freeing myself. Now I can see the real choices that are all around me. By freeing myself from my old life, I can chose a new one.

    "democracy doesnt work, its just that neither does anything else." This is a paraphrase of something said by Churchill. Something, I should add, he said after being abroard for a long time (In his case in a war prision camp from which he escaped).

    Looking after your loved ones is worthy, I am sorry if I implied that it wasn't. I am sure that the problems of home will sort themselves out, but one thing is certain: the country cannot go back to how it was. The banking bubble will be remembered long after the Dot Com bust is forgotten. From these ashes will come a new age less selfish than the last.

    Perhaps.

    "You are a stimulating sparing partner." As are you, I hope you stick around.

    CESCA SAYS:

    "The meaning of life is a musical thing and the whole idea is to sing or dance along" Alan Watts.
  • mr t durden
    now this makes life interesting.... im glad you finally replied... now possibly i was over agrresive or insulting and for that i apologise.... i think i had a valid veiw point though, which i'd like to clarify, as i think i was unclear. also, at the risk of causing more argument, id like to rebutt some of your comments...

    ok... by jolly, i ment something you do which has a reason, a good one, but also is rather enjoyable and means your not actually working. from time to time i get work related jollys, like full day training course and the like, and it seemed an appropriate comparison to travelling for a year out of your careers.


    and by " taking a year out of your life " i ment your working life.. the thing that the huge gaping vast majority of us have to do for between 4 and 6 days a week so we can have shelter, food, warmth, beer, tv and the internet.

    for narrow minded, im not going to argue with you, but im going to read it as focused instead, and you're right, i am focused on my priorites. my family, my freinds, staying employed in this time of fairly critical financial worry, these things are my priorities. sight seeing can wait. i suppose one of the first things that led me to write comments on your sight is my inability to fathom why, when you realised the state of your home country, did you not abandon your tour, and come home, before maybe we reach a state when coming home will leave you both with no jobs to find, no house to live in, and eventually no money to live with. work and money are not trivial things, but essential, they are the blood and oxygen of our world, and without them, we perish.

    did i know the history and plight of laos? lil bit. could i have pointed to it on a map? probably, i finished high school... did i care before or after reading your article... nope. because it doesnt, in the scheme of things, affect me or my life.

    presuming on my courage is intersting too.. you have to define courage. i do know that its not doing the things you want to do, the things you have been looking forward to.

    courage is doing the things you dont want to do, but have to do, because they are the things that need to be done.

    its also interesting that staying home and working and taking care of the people who need me is in your view blinkered, narrow, and selfish, but touring the world for a year is in some way magnanimus and to be applauded... i guess thats priorities again.

    i never asked you to be ashamed, nor told you that you should be. nor did i ever imply that you could hate your own people. i am fairly sure you are not that kind of person.

    and i do need to apologise, you are not banging on, you are correct, it is your website, and your democratic right to write what so ever you want on it, just as it is mine to reply. do bear in mind though that democracy doesnt work, its just that neither does anything else.

    as for the worthy things you dont see me doing, i dont publish them. its enough that i did them.


    i look forward to your future articles and comments sincerely. at the very least you are a stimulating sparing partner.


    FOR CESCA.

    i admire your honesty and bluntness. I am not behind my computer, but you are miles away, so one must use the weapons one has to hand.

    please take my comments in a spirit of pointed discussion, and not aggression, and be aware that i bear no ill will to either of you.
  • BASHO SAYS:

    To answer: No.

    This "terrible plight" is not because of natural disasters or bad government, this plight is because western nations bombed the shit out them!

    As for the "jolly" you mention, traveling for a year is not expensive if you time it right. The only thing stopping you doing it is your own narrow minded set of priorities. Any westerner in a similar situation to us (as in no children or mortgage) can do what we are doing. We have met those doing it on a far smaller budget than us. Visiting SEA in particular is very cheap if you restrict yourself to just that area. The big step is actually leaving home and living out of a bag, which I presume would take more courage than you yourself posses?

    As for "taking a year out of their lives", I am very sorry for you that you see it like this. I am not taking time out from anything, I am living my life. It is the rather blinkered narrow and selfish view that you have that is preventing you from seeing that maybe your life is being wasted.

    More than this, did you know about the plight of Laos before I wrote about it? Could you have pointed to it on a map? Or told of the history?

    I think not.

    Learning about people and their world is worthwhile activity and reporting on it to those back in your home is not "banging on!" A crime was perpetrated against these people, a complicated crime of power and pressure and the strong forcing the weak to live in fear and death. Pointing that out in as benign a way as writing something on my own website is not "banging on" it is the fundamental processes of democratic action and compassion.

    I am not ashamed. Nor do I hate my own people. I am simply telling it as I saw it. First hand.

    That is far more worthy than anything I see you doing.

    Hold on to your hats, there are over 7 posts coming on SEA, and many of them include similar themes. I look forwards to your comments on these!


    CESCA SAYS:

    Get out from behind your computer!


    - guess which one of us is the philosopher!
  • mr t durden
    An interesting article, but your preface is disturbing, and follows a line you take in previous articles....

    the disturbing point is this.....

    do you not see something very wrong with two people banging on about the terrible plight of indigenous poor people when they themselves have buggered off round the world on a jolly cos they can afford to take a year out of their lives?
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