V for vendetta; the ethics of terror

August 9, 2006  |  Philosophy
closeThis post was pub­lished over 700 days ago and there­fore may not rep­res­ent cur­rent Out­side Con­text think­ing or opin­ion. Please, do not let that detract from your enjoy­ment of it!

v-for-vendetta-poster-2.jpg

Last night I finally got to see the new Wachow­ski broth­ers’ film; V for Ven­detta. This film raises sev­eral inter­est­ing eth­ical dilem­mas that reflect our own world in 2006.

The two main themes brought to the fore are around the rela­tion­ships between people and states. I found myself moved by the chal­lenges raised by these themes and I present my thoughts here in such a way as to not spoil the film for those who have not seen it.

Firstly, what is a terrorist?

What does it mean to say that someone is a ter­ror­ist? Why is Nel­son Man­dela a free­dom fighter and prac­tic­ally dei­fied when someone else, someone equally as valid, is con­sidered the scum of the Earth?

Man­della star­ted as a ter­ror­ist too:

Umk­honto we Sizwe (or MK), trans­lated Spear of the Nation, was the act­ive mil­it­ary wing of the African National Con­gress (ANC). Foun­ded on 16 Decem­ber 1961 by the ANC and South African Com­mun­ist Party (SACP), its pur­pose was to mount guer­illa attacks against the South African apartheid régime for their oppres­sion against black people. It was clas­si­fied a ter­ror­ist organ­isa­tion by the South African gov­ern­ment and media, and sub­sequently banned.

A part of the evil in the world and not a fighter for free­dom (another spuri­ous word used in multi-layered con­texts). Is it that that Man­dela was fight­ing an “evil” régime? Who says so?

Free­dom fighter is a relativ­istic local term for those engaged in rebel­lion against an estab­lished organ­iz­a­tion that is thought to be oppress­ive. The terms free­dom and “rebel­lion” are often con­fus­ing, as often both sides in armed con­flict claim to rep­res­ent the pop­u­lar cause of “free­dom”. While external inter­ven­ing parties, even oppress­ors, almost always claim to be “lib­er­at­ors”, ‘free­dom fight­ers’ also often become oppress­ors in the eyes of civilians.

Who is it that decides what is evil? Can one even judge a whole soci­ety as evil? Is our soci­ety any bet­ter? Is the US?

Insti­tute for Policy Stud­ies scholar Pro­fessor Noam Chom­sky has referred to the tac­tics used by agents of the US gov­ern­ment and their prox­ies in their exe­cu­tion of US for­eign policy in such coun­tries as Nicaragua, Chile, Costa Rica, Hon­duras, Argen­tina, Colom­bia, Tur­key, Viet­nam, Laos and Cam­bodia [5] as a form of ter­ror­ism from which the term “Amer­ican ter­ror­ism” has been drawn. Chom­sky has also described the U.S as “a lead­ing ter­ror­ist state.” After Pres­id­ent Bush began using the term “War on Ter­ror­ism,” Chom­sky stated:
The U.S. is offi­cially com­mit­ted to what is called “low-intensity war­fare.“[…] If you read the defin­i­tion of low-intensity con­flict in army manu­als and com­pare it with offi­cial defin­i­tions of “ter­ror­ism” in army manu­als, or the U.S. Code, you find they’re almost the same. [6]

The French?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/

Armed with some of the strict­est anti-terrorism laws and policies in Europe, the French gov­ern­ment has aggress­ively tar­geted Islamic rad­ic­als and other people deemed a poten­tial ter­ror­ist threat. While other West­ern coun­tries debate the proper bal­ance between secur­ity and indi­vidual rights, France has exper­i­enced scant pub­lic dis­sent over tac­tics that would be con­tro­ver­sial, if not illegal, in the United States and some other countries.

What skel­et­ons are in our closets? Is it really the ines­cap­able con­clu­sion that to call someone a ter­ror­ist is a mat­ter of mere sub­ject­ive perspective?

What hap­pens when that per­spect­ive changes? When the Taliban fought the Rus­si­ans they were free­dom fight­ers, but when they fight the west­ern powers sud­denly they are ter­ror­ists. Rambo III was ded­ic­ated to the “the galant people of Afgh­anistan”, and the film was full of com­ple­ments regard­ing their noble yet fierce res­ist­ance of the Rus­sian men­ace. As Rambo him­self remarks “(They) don’t take any shit”. Now it is more likely that the next film use them as tar­get practice?

Could ter­ror­ism really be a label, some­thing that is simple fin­ger point­ing? Do I say you are a ter­ror­ist and it magic­ally becomes true, or is it that you auto­mat­ic­ally become a ter­ror­ist to me when you attack my trains or my towers? Then what must we look like to the rest of the world? I try and think of the most ter­ri­fy­ing thing I can and basic­ally it is already hap­pen­ing to other nations today. Some­thing that we, or at least our lead­ers and their armies, are doing to them.

George W. Bush: I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these ter­ror­ist killers. Thank you.
[George W. Bush bran­dishes a golf club]
George W. Bush: Now, watch this drive.

Ima­gine: that an alien and, from your point of view, cor­rupt for­eign national gov­ern­ment sent an unbeat­able army to rain down bombs onto you, and no one cared. Cam­eras came and recor­ded you dig­ging the graves of your chil­dren, but they are not there for you. Your private morn­ing is now pub­lic; now bare to the world. It is a world that hates your faith, your coun­try. A World that hates your way of life and who has power, unima­gin­able power over you and at one and the same time fears and hates you. Who can lock you away without trial, forever?

Is that not ter­ror? Would you not, in that situ­ation, point the fin­ger and identify the ter­ror­ists when asked. Would you not give them their own names?

I would.

The mean­ing is even fur­ther mis­used by those who refer to a “War on ter­ror”. Since bring­ing a war against a nation is ter­rible are you not cre­at­ing ter­ror? Should the army simply shoot itself? This mis­nomer has des­troyed the mean­ing of the word. It is polit­ical double speak, the first steps along the lines to News­peak. Double plus good!

Charges of News­peak are some­times advanced when a group tries to replace a word/phrase that is polit­ic­ally unsuit­able (e.g. “civil­ian cas­u­al­ties”) or offens­ive (e.g. “murder”) with a polit­ic­ally cor­rect or inof­fens­ive euphem­ism (e.g. “col­lat­eral dam­age”). Some main­tain that to make cer­tain words or phrases “unspeak­able” (thoughtcrime) restricts what ideas may be held (News­peak) and is there­fore tan­tamount to cen­sor­ship. Oth­ers believe that expun­ging terms that have fallen out of favor or become insult­ing will make people less likely to hold out­dated or offens­ive views. The intent to alter the minds of the pub­lic through changes made to lan­guage illus­trates News­peak perfectly.

So, what does it mean to call someone a ter­ror­ist? Almost noth­ing. The word has almost no mean­ing at all. It is as Niet­z­sche wrote; it is Res­sen­ti­ment.

Res­sen­ti­ment is a pro­found sense of resent­ment, frus­tra­tion, and hos­til­ity dir­ec­ted at that which one iden­ti­fies as the cause of one’s frus­tra­tion, gen­er­ated by a sense of weakness/inferiority and feel­ings of jealousy/envy in the face of the ’cause’, that ulti­mately gen­er­ates a rejecting/justifying ‘value-system’ or mor­al­ity that exists as a means of attack­ing or deny­ing the per­ceived source of one’s own sense of inferiority.

Some­thing from which you can­not escape; a feel­ing of fear and the derid­ing of any­thing dif­fer­ent and unortho­dox, it is the mak­ing of a scape­goat. The war against ter­ror becomes fnord, some­thing that your con­scious brain shy’s away from in an attempt to get on with your life. You will put up with any­thing to keep ter­ror at bay. Almost any free­dom is taken, snatched; not given, from the people because of the nasty fnord await­ing you.

Fnord is the typo­graphic rep­res­ent­a­tion of dis­in­form­a­tion or irrel­ev­ant inform­a­tion intend­ing to mis­dir­ect, with the implic­a­tion of a con­spir­acy.

The word was coined as a non­sensical term with reli­gious under­tones in the Prin­cipia Dis­cor­dia by Kerry Thorn­ley and Greg Hill, but was pop­ular­ized by The Illu­minatus! Tri­logy of books by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. In these nov­els, the inter­jec­tion “fnord” is given hyp­notic power over the unen­lightened. Under the Illu­minati pro­gram, chil­dren, while still in grade school, are taught to be unable to con­sciously see the word “fnord”. For the rest of their lives, every appear­ance of the word sub­con­sciously gen­er­ates a feel­ing of uneas­i­ness and con­fu­sion, and pre­vents rational con­sid­er­a­tion of the subject.

To get away with this, they send you hid­den poster boys of terror.

A single evil man, sup­posedly the mas­ter in a pup­pet theatre try­ing to des­troy the world. I have seen this thing. One man, they say, one man is wrong. He is the one man. Stop him for he is what you should be afraid of. And so we are. Why? Because we are told to be. In the end the act of attrib­ut­ing more and more events to one mans actions becomes an ever-repeating circle. He becomes a source of ter­ror like the sun is a source of light and all ref­er­ence to ter­ror lead back to this one man.

delib­er­ate tech­niques for scare­mon­ger­ing. For example:

  • Care­ful selec­tion and omis­sion of news (some rel­ev­ant facts are shown and some are not);
  • Dis­tor­tion of stat­ist­ics or numbers;
  • Trans­form­a­tion of single events into social epidemics;
  • Cor­rup­tion and dis­tor­tion of words or ter­min­o­logy accord­ing to spe­cific goals;
  • Stig­mat­iz­a­tion of minor­it­ies, espe­cially when asso­ci­ated with crim­inal acts or degrad­ing behaviour;
  • Gen­er­al­iz­a­tion of com­plex and mul­ti­fa­ceted situations;
  • Causal inver­sion (turn­ing a cause into an effect or vice-versa).

That is what we are told to think and slowly erodes the rains of our free­dom. Chains built to pro­tect us. What an irony. What a tragedy, ter­ror cre­ated from a seed; the desire to live free. To live essen­tially selfish lives.

In a coun­try that uses the word ter­ror­ist against any­one, what are we loos­ing? We are los­ing our abil­ity to com­plain, the corner­stone of any demo­cracy. We are los­ing rights both in pub­lic and in private as the gov­ern­ment uses the war on ter­ror as an excuse to remove that, which is dif­fer­ent and does not conform.

The signs are plen­ti­ful but small. A man car­ry­ing a plac­ard is arres­ted but let go.

Mr Jago, who will appear in court in Septem­ber on charges of mount­ing an illegal demon­stra­tion pro­hib­ited by the Ser­i­ous Organ­ised Crime and Police Act (Socpa ), was searched and found to have three cop­ies of an art­icle from Van­ity Fair.

A for­eign vis­itor is shot dead for no reason.

Jean Charles de Menezes (7 Janu­ary 197822 July 2005) was a Brazilian elec­tri­cian liv­ing in Tulse Hill in south Lon­don, United King­dom. Menezes was shot and killed at Stock­well tube sta­tion on the Lon­don Under­ground by unnamed Met­ro­pol­itan Police officers. Police later issued an apo­logy, say­ing that they had mis­taken him for a sus­pect in the pre­vi­ous day’s failed bomb­ings and acknow­ledging that Menezes in fact had no explos­ives and was uncon­nec­ted with the attemp­ted bombings.

Up until recently, you could refuse the police. You could say, “I am sorry officer, I do not sub­mit to my bags being searched.” But not any­more. My police­man friends inform me that under the pro­vi­sions of anti-terrorism legis­la­tion you and I no longer have that right. For “our” protection.

A small price, you might say?

Ah, but how the mouse nibbles at the cheese and how, soon, there is to be no cheese left. These “small” prices add up, they cre­ate weight. A crush­ing and unbear­able weight on my mind that makes the fear essen­tially worse. And so, they des­troy more rights and our decent into dark­ness is by inches, cen­ti­metres and mil­li­metres but always ever downwards.

What can be done? Will we ever “defeat” terrorism?

How can we? No one even knows what the word means and the meth­ods being used to fight it not only cre­ate more fear, but are also acts of ter­ror­ism themselves.


Basho

Com­ing next: “The tip­ping point man; can we let one man decide what is best for all of us?”

Pop­ular­ity: unranked [?]

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  • Anonymous
    ???
  • Basho
    Well, its nice to see my thread back on track after I had frankly given up on it (I mean, what has flamethrowers got to do with anything?), anyway:

    Terrorist, I think we can agree, is a bloated term almost devoid of any definitive meaning. Like, for example, "art" or "love", or perhaps "truth".

    There are many kinds of terror and indeed they are all, from the point of view of those suffering them, bad.

    The government has learned not to call the middle eastern fighters "terrorists" unless they are in our country. When in Iraq they are now called "insurgents". Quite how you can "'inserge" in your own country is beyond me, but that is the new "label of evil".

    Things have always been this way and governments, kings, those in power, have always liked to give a name to a fear, a label, with which they can directly refer to. Nor, I suspect, is it a surprise to learn that almost anything perceived to be bad has been stuck under these labels. Moreover, both sides in any one conflict point at the other and say "evil ones", consider that in England the pox was known as "the French disease" and in France as the "la maladie anglaise" (the English disease).

    So, what is the point I am making with all this? basically that one should not be so quick to give up freedoms and civil rights in the name of "anti-terror" and one should definitely not be so quick to allow atrocities (like GW2 etc) in the name of a "war on terror". Fear should be no excuse to take away that which is our right. why? because in 5/10/20/50/Our-grandchildren's times the cumulative effect will be awful and it will be like 1984.

    That is what V for Vendetta was trying to say.

    I don't fear the bombers of London. I was on the tube to Liverpool St the next day and I don't look at Muslims any differently than I did before. It is as one old man in London is claimed to have said:
    "I've been bombed by a better class of ###### than this!"

    Standing up against my government on this issue is something I take very seriously. I will do everything in my power as a citizen to bring to book those that use terrorist activities to forwards a political agenda on behalf of the US, or those who use fear to break down the high level of civil rights that makes England the place it is and could be.
  • Basho
    QUOTE(Chimpy @ Aug 15 2006, 03:36 PM)
    That's by a large part a propaganda definition. In this case it is treated as a pejorative term.


    That's the point. There is no non-pejorative term for terrorism.

    QUOTE
    If we work to a dispassionate view of what Terrorism is then we can define a Terrorist by their actions.


    The problem is you cannot define those actions as to be distinct from those of many other forms of violence, such as "Freedom fighting" etc.

    The whole "Terrorists only attack civilians" is a useless definition for many reasons:

    1. They clearly don't.
    2. Many groups, including our own governments, attack civilians all the time.

    Anyway, this is essentially proving the point of the thread, which is that the term terrorism has been abused and misused in the most degrading way by successive western governments (and others) and is now basically valueless.

    Moreover, the emotive associations of the word are so regularly abused and re-enforced that the term "terrorist" now can never be separated from them.

    The larger issue is to realise that such manipulation is absolutely everywhere in the media, all fueled by, and to the benefit of, certain individuals and groups. By none other than the very people who are supposed to be working for us.

    I, personally, can see the Fnords.
  • Chimpy
    I disagree totally.

    Not all 'Freedom Fighters' are terrorists.

    Terrorism is a strategy. As is Insurgency. As is a more conventional war.

    The choice of strategy is generally pragmatic but can be morally influenced (e.g. only targeting military targets).

    Suicide bombing is a tactic that is part of the Terrorism strategy. It could equally fall into any of the other strategies but probably wouldn't be employed in the same manner. It is a symptom of the overbearing security that the opposing group has to face, it is simply more effective to blow yourself up than to try and hide a device then escape. IED's have matured from shells hidden at the road side to the use of shaped Platter charges as they are more effective. Bombing a restaurant has matured to walking into a restaurant and blowing yourself up. What the US would define as evolving TTP.

    The definition of a Terrorist is then easy. It is someone who is taking part in a campaign that is using the Terrorism strategy.

    QUOTE
    Source:
    Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby — in contrast to assassination — the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought," (Schmid, 1988).
  • Basho (mod)
    Lets try one last time, even someone like you should be able to follow this.

    You said:
    QUOTE
    In any case, when was the last time terrorists targeted a military? They don't.


    I said:
    QUOTE
    How about the USS Cole attack:


    I then offered the following evidence:
    QUOTE
    President Bill Clinton declared, "If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act."


    Thereby clearly proving you wrong.

    QED
  • Jagdraben
    QUOTE(Basho @ Aug 13 2006, 07:23 AM)
    Maybe because it shows you are inncorect in your assumptons.
    Yes it is. That is to show that the word terrorism really doesn't mean anything at all. It is just finger pointing.

    Modern terrorism? What the hell is that?

    To be quite honest, your skillz at teh quotzorz is teh n00bish.

    I can't tell who said what up there, and therefore I do not know what context, if any, is being used.

    QUOTE
    The New Yorker disagrees with you:

    The President has signed a series of findings and executive orders authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations against suspected terrorist targets in as many as ten nations in the Middle East and South Asia.

    The President’s decision enables Rumsfeld to run the operations off the books

    The fact that you didnt see the clandestine operations on the news does not mean that they didnt happen. In the same way that if you close your eyes it doesn't mean your mommy can't see you.

    That's not 'Shock and Awe'. That's part of a clandestine operation.

    'Shock and Awe' was not a calndestine operation. It was carried out by American bombers and could be viewed any day on the news.

    QUOTE
    WHAT!? Are you *fruitcage* kidding?

    No. The targets selected were done so based on how much real damage they would do to the Iraqi C3 and infrastructure. None were selected at random, nor were any chosen for symbolic value.

    QUOTE
    How about the USS Cole attack:

    President Bill Clinton declared, "If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act."

    Your example only shows that different people use different definitions.

    QUOTE
    If you say that this attack was not terrorism, you prove my point "governments point the finger of terrorism just to illicit certain reaction from their people".

    I was never arguing over this point.

    QUOTE
    If, however, you say ok that was actually terrorism then you are clearly wrong in your statement that terrorists don’t attack military targets.

    Which is it?

    Neither. You're inventing an argument that I never made.

    If I were to make an argument, in this case, it would be that the men in question were criminals. They were not a state agency (barring them from being soldiers or war criminals) and they were not fighting against a power oppressing them (freedom fighter) nor did they target civilians (terrorist). They attacked a foreign power, who was not oppressing them. Since they fit into no other definition, yet they clearly committed a crime, they are criminals, neither freedom fighters nor terrorists.

    QUOTE
    The government feed you “terrorists” and you eat it up. Why? Because terrorists are always wrong. TO call someone a freedom fighter is simply to say that you agree with their aims. Nothing more!
    *

    rolleyes.gif

    You are, again, making counter-points to an argument I never made.
  • Evilhippy
    Wow, no-one seems able to define a terrorist. I think thats kinda the whole point of this entire thread, and that people are trying to define it still makes me chuckle.

    It CAN'T be defined to the agreement of everyone, but as far as I am concerned, any and all freedom fighters are just as bad and are EXACTLY THE SAME as terrorists because they do the same damn thing - terrify and kill people. Who they kill and terrify is irrelevant because you can guarantee that whoever it is thats being attacked feels like an unrighteously oppressed victim.
    If you try to distinguish one from the other you are only going to be able to question their reasons, and their reasons only exist because of what and who has influenced them in their lives.

    This is where it gets 100% subjective and this is why definition breaks down.

    If you distinguish between suicide bombers, salesmen and catholic priests you are missing the point that the same thing has happened to each of these types of people: they have been influenced to spend their lives in a certain way that may help or hinder others, and they have been influenced by others so completely that they devote their whole existence to it even though none of these 3 causes has any meaning in the long run. All 3 are just people, and like what one man may call a terrorist and another a freedom fighter, even the priest is simply a victim of social pressures and influence.

    But, thats not the point. The point is that `a terrorist` is such a useful catch-all definition for the Western governments to label anyone they wish to take military action against that they couldn't possibly allow anyone to disparage the term, not until they think of a better one wink.gif
  • Basho
    Posted by: Basho Today, 01:23 PM
    QUOTE
    Why should I care if someone disagrees?
    Maybe because it shows you are inncorect in your assumptons.
    QUOTE

    which is, by your definition, terrorism.
    Yes it is. That is to show that the word terrorism really doesn't mean anything at all. It is just finger pointing.

    QUOTE
    But the goal of modern terrorism
    Modern terrorism? What the hell is that?

    QUOTE

    The United States military did not engage in clandestine activities when engaging in 'Shock and Awe', and could not ergo be committing terror by this definition.


    The New Yorker disagrees with you:

    The President has signed a series of findings and executive orders authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations against suspected terrorist targets in as many as ten nations in the Middle East and South Asia.

    The President’s decision enables Rumsfeld to run the operations off the books

    The fact that you didnt see the clandestine operations on the news does not mean that they didnt happen. In the same way that if you close your eyes it doesn't mean your mommy can't see you.

    QUOTE
    Further, the targets selected in the 'Shock and Awe' campaign were not selected based on symbolism nor were they targets of opprotunity.


    WHAT!? Are you *fruitcage* kidding?

    QUOTE
    In any case, when was the last time terrorists targeted a military? They don't.


    How about the USS Cole attack:

    President Bill Clinton declared, "If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act."

    If you say that this attack was not terrorism, you prove my point "governments point the finger of terrorism just to illicit certain reaction from their people". If, however, you say ok that was actually terrorism then you are clearly wrong in your statement that terrorists don’t attack military targets.

    Which is it?

    The government feed you “terrorists” and you eat it up. Why? Because terrorists are always wrong. TO call someone a freedom fighter is simply to say that you agree with their aims. Nothing more!
  • Jagdraben
    Posted by: Jagdraben Today, 12:01 AM
    QUOTE(Cruiser1068 @ Aug 11 2006, 11:28 AM)
    Oops so you admit that all the Israeli and US army are terrorists then? Because bombing the ###### out of entire towns/cities packed with civilians in the hope of killing the odd militant that might be in there somewhere especially using White Phosphorous, DU and other illegal weapons is DEFINITELY targetiing civilians (eg Lebanon, Fallujah etc)
    *



    All? Painting with a broad brush, are we?

    It doesn't make them terrorists. It makes them war criminals. War criminals are not punished if they're on the winning side. Just as terrorists are not punished and become lauded as freedom fighters by future generations, so long as they are fighting for the winning side (ie: John Brown).

    In both Lebanon and Fallujah, civilians were given ample warning to pack up and leave. The Israelis have been dropping leaflets left and right and when an army sets up check points (through which you may leave, after being searched) on the edges of your town and masses for a push through (and there's plenty of talk on the radio of 'the coming offensive') you have a little more than just a little warning. If you choose to stay behind, it is your choice. You choose to take the risk of dying in the crossfire.

    And save your pithy talk of 'illegal weapons'. Those weapons are only illegal if they're being used against a signatory of the Geneva Conventions by a signatory of the Geneva Conventions. The United States has not signed the Geneva Conventions (but largely abides by it) and insurgents do not constitute a nation and cannot be signatories of the Geneva Conventions (and, let's be frank, they wouldn't abide by it, even if they did sign it). Are you going to complain about the United States using "illegal" shotguns against insurgents, since those, too, are barred by the Geneva Conventions? I suppose you would then be ambivolent about the use of flamethrowers, since they are not illegal under the Geneva Conventions.

    In any case, I find it highly unlikely that the United States, Israel, or Russia purposefully target civilians. Why would they? They lose enough face as it is, everytime a bomb misses, or a platoon opens up on insurgents hiding among women and children. In fact, it is rare for any military to target civilians outside of the Balkans, Africa, or the Middle-East. Fighting men may target civilians, but those are individuals or small units. Not the whole bloody aparatus.

    EDIT: Oh, and while you're kvetching about "collateral damage", consider for an instant the "collateral damage" done by the insurgents when they target the Iraqi police and military or the United States military. If you actually do pay attention, you'll note that most of those who die in those attacks are Iraqi civilians, not Iraqi or American servicemen.

    And, by the by, most violence in Iraq is directed by Iraqis against other Iraqis. Generally unarmed Iraqis whose only crime is that they go to the wrong mosque. Whose leaders fail to grasp the irony that last year they were boasting about how damaging their strikes were against the American military and today they kvetch about how the American military isn't doing enough to protect them.

    Posted by: Jagdraben Today, 12:20 AM
    QUOTE(Basho @ Aug 12 2006, 12:14 PM)
    Terrorist = attacks civilians specifically?
    Freedom Fighter = attacks gov't specifically?


    I think we have a winner.

    QUOTE
    Lets see if anyone agrees with you?


    Why should I care if someone disagrees?

    QUOTE
    To start, how about The Oxford English Dictionary:


    I note that you have not selected any definitions for a freedom fighter.

    In any case, this definition directly clashes with your later definitions.

    QUOTE
    This would cover many of the actions taken by our governments; "Shock and Awe" anyone?


    Psychological warfare is inherent in all modes of war fighting. All the best militaries have engaged in it and used it to brutal effect. The Spartans. The Romans. The Vikings. The Mongols. The point of psychological warfare is to scare the s___ out of your enemies, which is, by your definition, terrorism.

    But the goal of modern terrorism is to kill and maim as many as possible. The goal of psychological warfare is to defeat your enemy or to severely degrade your enemy's ability to fight. Whether that means that they surrender upon seeing your army or are rendered combat ineffective and destroyed is entirely academic in this discussion.

    QUOTE
    Read about Shock and Awe:


    See above.

    QUOTE
    Or perhaps a political definition of terrorism would be better from the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Politics (2nd edition):

    Like the CIA for example?


    The CIA is not self-appointed, nor is it a sub-state group. Nor are most militaries, especially not the military of the United States.

    QUOTE
    How about from The UN themselves:


    The United States military did not engage in clandestine activities when engaging in 'Shock and Awe', and could not ergo be committing terror by this definition.

    Further, the targets selected in the 'Shock and Awe' campaign were not selected based on symbolism nor were they targets of opprotunity.

    QUOTE
    No, I don't see ANY of these definitions drawing a difference between "military targets" and "civilian targets".
    *



    Do you allow biased groups with political agendas to dress you in the morning, too?

    Wait. Don't answer that.

    In any case, when was the last time terrorists targeted a military? They don't.
  • Basho
    Posted by: Basho Yesterday, 06:14 PM
    Terrorist = attacks civilians specifically?
    Freedom Fighter = attacks gov't specifically?

    dry.gif

    Lets see if anyone agrees with you?

    To start, how about The Oxford English Dictionary:

    QUOTE
    ... defines terrorism as "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorising or condition of being terrorised."


    This would cover many of the actions taken by our governments; "Shock and Awe" anyone?

    Read about Shock and Awe:
    QUOTE
    "spectacular displays of power" (also known as shock and awe) as a means of destroying an adversary's will to fight and adversely affecting the psychology and the will of the enemy to resist. The doctrine was written by Harlan K. Ullman and James. P. Wade and is a product of the National Defense University of the United States.[1] The military operation named "Shock and awe" began the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Debate exists as to whether or not this operation actually was a true rapid dominance campaign or truly elicited shock and awe.


    Or perhaps a political definition of terrorism would be better from the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Politics (2nd edition):

    QUOTE
    Term with no agreement amongst government or academic analysts, but almost invariably used in a pejorative sense, most frequently to describe life-threatening actions perpetrated by politically motivated self-appointed sub-state groups.


    Like the CIA for example? huh.gif So that doesn't help much ... hmmmm... How about from The UN themselves:

    QUOTE
    4. Academic Consensus Definition:

    "Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988).


    No, I don't see ANY of these definitions drawing a difference between "military targets" and "civilian targets".
  • Kraut
    Posted by: Kraut Yesterday, 01:27 AM
    The terrorist specifically targets civilian targets, which may or may not be anywhere near government establishment (including military).
    Case in point: WTC. Thousands of civilians. A few gov't workers from various nations tossed in but the vast majority were everyday office workers as well as service personnel (custodians, window washers, security, etc). These towers were intentionally targeted.
    The result of this attack, while succeeding in destroying a major economic center and killing thousands of civilians, brought attention to them, as well as the military might of the US and other nations. Of course, in this process, the US (and other nations) received criticism from internal and external sources, undermining their efforts to prevent further such attacks. The nation is ‘divided’ and fighting with itself while it also tries to fight an external enemy.
    They had perfect opportunities to attack any military/gov’t targets (as evidenced with the Pentagon), but mainly killed civilians, not gov’t employees or structures.

    A freedom fighter targets government establishments (including and more specifically military) exclusively. He attacks tactical and strategic gov’t targets, much like any ‘developed’ military nation would in any wartime situation, their goal to cripple said war fighting capability and, in the process, weaken the power of said gov’t. This is not achieved through the death of civilians en masse. They maintain a low profile, mainly through the use of guerilla warfare with ‘regular’ military ‘rebel’ units following up. Vietnam mainly used this strategy, though they did use civilians as shields and suicide bombs, but not to the extent as seen in Southeast Asia. They attacked mainly US military units and caused a slow process of attrition as well as lowering US public support of US involvement, which helped their cause (Communist control of Vietnam).



    ######, I had more, but I got interrupted…
    Summary:
    Terrorist = attacks civilians specifically
    Freedom Fighter = attacks gov't specifically
  • Cruiser1068
    Posted by: Cruiser1068 Aug 11 2006, 05:28 PM
    QUOTE(Jagdraben @ Aug 11 2006, 05:10 PM)
    Uh... no I don't.

    If a man is otherwise a freedom fighter, but uses civilians as a shield, he is a terrorist. If a man is otherwise a freedom fighter but targets civilians (and/or collaborators), he is a terrorist. If a man is otherwise a terrorist, but takes a rifle and fights against his uniformed enemies, he is still a terrorist.


    *



    Oops so you admit that all the Israeli and US army are terrorists then? Because bombing the ###### out of entire towns/cities packed with civilians in the hope of killing the odd militant that might be in there somewhere especially using White Phosphorous, DU and other illegal weapons is DEFINITELY targetiing civilians (eg Lebanon, Fallujah etc)
  • Jagdraben
    Posted by: Jagdraben Aug 11 2006, 05:10 PM
    QUOTE(Basho @ Aug 11 2006, 12:28 AM)
    Yes it is. You have a very romantisied view of the difference.
    *



    Uh... no I don't.

    If a man is otherwise a freedom fighter, but uses civilians as a shield, he is a terrorist. If a man is otherwise a freedom fighter but targets civilians (and/or collaborators), he is a terrorist. If a man is otherwise a terrorist, but takes a rifle and fights against his uniformed enemies, he is still a terrorist.

    Being a freedom fighter is like being a good soldier, or a good man. It mayn't be easy, but if you f___ up in your judgement and act even once as a terrorist, a war criminal, or an arsehat, you become a terrorist, a war criminal, or an arsehat. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    Maybe it's not that I have a romanticised view, it's that you cannot tell the difference between what is moral and what is immoral. Or maybe it's that you feel that there is no way for a man to be a freedom fighter without resorting to terrorism. Which is hardly true.

    Or maybe it's that I do have a romanticised view, but that doesn't make it any less true. A soldier becomes a war criminal after he executes a civilian who was aiding rebels. No matter what he does from that day forth, he is a war criminal, not a soldier. A freedom fighter becomes a terrorist after blowing up the house of a collaborator. No matter what he does from that day forth, he is a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. You cannot perform evil in the name of good.
  • Spedz
    Posted by: Spedz Aug 10 2006, 04:45 PM
    Bam! To behold, a public bulitin board, both built with briliance and barbarity with bastards with boners. This bastion, no mere a bulwak of boredom, is a brutal barrage of blistering bulshit, barely benevolent........ But behind the bigotary and boobs behind the bitter broadcast of bragging baffoons: Here be the body of politic. A brotherhood of blasphemy blessed with more balls then brains, battling the bland, the bogus and the benign. Bedlam? Bring it on, but I bablle better to be brief.....You may call me /b/
    ...................Oh wait sorry wrong thread.

    Right with my serious side I'll too contribute to this thread.

    QUOTE(Basho)
    Ah, but how the mouse nibbles at the cheese and how, soon, there is to be no cheese left. These "small" prices add up, they create weight. A crushing and unbearable weight on my mind that makes the fear essentially worse. And so, they destroy more rights and our decent into darkness is by inches, centimetres and millimetres but always ever downwards.


    Indeed it is true. This I see is a sign of power mongering. The goverment is now slowely and surely has done this over time and like all powermad meglamaniacs I mean politicains will all ways will we just have to resist the stupidity of the few am afraid.
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