This is a write up of an argument on the Arnies forums.

Firstly, I posted in a topic regarding George Bush, which was started by the late Hissing Sid:

I see that Bush, in his State of the Union speech, has noted that the USA is “addicted to oil” and has made additional funding available to find alternative energy sources in order to make the USA self sufficient and not reliant on “unstable” countries for oil.

And, in the same speech, he demands that Iran stop building their nuclear power plants for fear that the plutonium or Uranium can be used to make nukular™ weapons.

Double standard or what?

This post has been edited by Hissing Sid

My main post was added after a few short points making the comparison between Iran’s behaviors and that of the US. It was as follows:

You see, I look at it that they went into Iraq under a ###### banner of “Oh Noes teh Missiles!” and now it is “Oh noes teh nukes!”.

Weapons of Mass destruction!?

And as for the atomic/nuke point Kiero, remember that it took the ENTIRE UK and European US airforces an entire day to bomb Dresden, dropping more bombs than almost the entire rest of the war… casualties? 250,000.

The US drop ONE bomb on Japan and kill 180,000 in four seconds.

You might say they have learned their lesson? I for one don’t trust the US to do the right thing any more than I do the Iranians. The US is the ultimate rogue state, rampaging their way around the world with a religious fundamentalism at its lead.

Axis of Evil? I can spot evil when I see it thank you Mr Bush. And I am looking at it right now:

For this i recieved a neggative reputation point from a ninja-repper (someone not involved with the dicussion).

The Bush/Hitler comparison was offensive and completely off base.There is no comparison between the US and the Nazi state. period. Full stop.I thought most airsofters were right of center…..

We continue as I answer to him:

QUOTE

trench_raiderThe Bush/Hitler comparison was offensive and completely off base.There is no comparison between the US and the Nazi state. period. Full stop.I thought most airsofters were right of center…..

Now firstly, don’t get me wrong: I like America. The values that the country was founded upon and the philosophy of its democratic system together with its belief in the John Stuart Mill version of Liberty is very refreshing.

However, I like much of the world, see disturbing things in the current US administration and historically. For example, IBM supplied the machines in the Death Camps:
IBM and the Holocaust

I would recommend the excellent film and book “The Corporation” to see how this is a corrupting influence over US policy. But more directly regarding Bush, what is Totalitarianism?

QUOTE

Totalitarianism
Totalitarianism is a form of government in which all societal resources are monopolized by the state in an effort to penetrate and control all aspects of public and private life, through the state’s use of propaganda, terror, and technology. Totalitarian ideologies reject the existing society as corrupt, immoral, and beyond reform, project an alternative society in which these wrongs are to be redressed, and provide plans and programs for realizing the alternative order. These ideologies, supported by propaganda campaigns, demand total conformity on the part of the people.Totalitarian forms of organization enforce this demand for conformity. Totalitarian societies are hierarchies dominated by one political party and usually by a single leader. The party penetrates the entire country through regional, provincial, local and “primary” (party-cell) organization. Youth, professional, cultural, and sports groups supplement the party’s political control. A paramilitary secret police ensures compliance. Information and ideas are effectively organized through the control of television, radio, the press, and education at all levels.

Rings a few bells with me… Finally, consider this:

QUOTE

To make a comparison between Germany in the 1930s and America now, I relied on a Web site called “A Teacher’s Guide to the Holocaust.” The passages in quotations below are taken from the site.”With Adolf Hitler’s ascendancy to the chancellorship, the Nazi Party quickly consolidated its power. Hitler managed to maintain a posture of legality throughout the Nazification process.”Whether by chance or design, George W. Bush is the most powerful American president in modern history. Not only does he have both houses of Congress beholden to him, but the majority of the Supreme Court is acting like a quintet of Bush lapdogs. And it all appears legal.”Domestically, during the next six years, Hitler completely transformed Germany into a police state.”Civil libertarians insist that this is happening here now, with the USA Patriot Act in force and Patriot II on the table.”Hitler engaged in a ‘diplomatic revolution’ by negotiating with other European countries and publicly expressing his strong desire for peace.”

Nobody can accuse Bush of being overly diplomatic, but, like all political leaders, he is an apostle for peace, even while starting two wars during his brief tenure.

In 1933, the Reichstag, Germany’s parliament building, was burned to the ground. Nobody knows for sure who set the fire. The Nazis blamed communists. “This incident prompted Hitler[,then Germany's chancellor,] to convince [German President Paul von] Hindenburg to issue a Decree for the Protection of People and State that granted Nazis sweeping power to deal with the so-called emergency.”

The Reichstag fire parallels the Sept. 11 attacks here, and Hindenburg’s decree parallels our USA Patriot Act.

Soon after Hitler took power, the concentration camp at Dachau was created and “the Nazis began arresting Communists, Socialists and labor leaders … . Parliamentary democracy ended with the Reichstag passage of the Enabling Act, which allowed the government to issue laws without the Reichstag.”

With Bush leading all branches of government around by the nose, there’s a question whether parliamentary democracy still exists here. Certainly, concentration camps exist, if we’re willing to call the lockup at Guanténamo Bay what it really is. And the USA Patriot Act allows the president to effectively take citizenship rights from any American-born criminal suspect.

“Nazi anti-Semitic legislation and propaganda against ‘Non-Aryans’ was a thinly disguised attack against anyone who had Jewish parents or grandparents. Jews felt increasingly isolated from the rest of German society.”

How comfortable do American-born Arabs feel in the United States today?

While the German concentration camps were being built and Jews were being persecuted, in 1936 Nazi Germany hosted the Olympic Games and put its best face forward to the world. We have the Super Bowl.

In the mid- to late 1930s, Germany was able to annex nearby territories without firing a shot. That was because of the threat of the German military, the strongest in the world at the time. That might be compared with the sudden flexibility of Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Libya, all of whom are aware that Bush will do more than just threaten; he’ll do it.

When one is comparing then and now, I think the most interesting factor is that most German Jews remained in Germany until it was too late. They just couldn’t believe Hitler was as dangerous as some people said he was. The more prescient Jews (most often those who could afford to do so) got out, however.

Hitler came to power in 1933, but the killing of Jews (and others) didn’t begin until five years later, in 1938, with the historic Kristallnacht (”Night of Broken Glass”) on Nov. 9. On that day, “nearly 1,000 synagogues were set on fire and 76 were destroyed. More than 7,000 Jewish businesses and homes were looted, about 100 Jews were killed, and as many as 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps to be tormented … .”

We haven’t seen anything like that here, nor does it appear to be one the horizon, yet one must wonder about the hundreds shut away in Guanténamo Bay and in other lockups in the United States and throughout the world.

I haven’t space here to list all of the apparent comparisons between then and now, but you can see them for yourself by reading the teacher’s guide mentioned earlier.

My conclusion is that some comparisons between modern times and Nazi Germany are valid, and some are not. Enough are valid, in my opinion, however, for us to be wary, and as vigilant as humanly possible.

So as you can see, I hope, there is a valid note in comparing Bush to Hitler. I am not saying they are the same, nor that Bush is definitively evil (that’s a judgment for history 50 years from now), rather that the US has become a rather frightening place and this man is possibly echoing the vital mistakes of the past.

Period. Full stop.

Basho

His reply:

Just to set the record straight before you go and accuse me of just being a Republican partisan or defending the president in a siort of knee0jerk reaction let me state that I do not like Mr. Bush either. Although I voted for him both times, I was in the postion of many Democrats in that I was voting against a candiate rather than for one. Bush is hardly a conservative, is almost treasonous in the area of third world immigration and the impending demographic disaster, and is far too timid in his dealing with the Dems for my taste. I would far rather have voted for a real Conservative like Pat Buchanan (who I am very like politically and tend to agree with on most issues) rather than the luke-warm Bush, but in our two party system, a vote for a third party candidate is In effect a vote for the opposition.Anyway, I actually read your cut and paste points and reject them. I have heard many of the same tired old comparisons to the Nazi state by US based leftists and those too fall on their face. (not to mention that big bugbear of the left the “Patriot Act” which in fact only extends police powers that already exist and requires judicial oversight for the most intrusive aspects) In fact, they are an insult to the memory of the huge numbers of people victimized by real fascist states in the past.I could go though point by point and demolish your contention that US is becoming a police state and that Bush is similar to Hitler. However two points will do for right now:-One of the primary characteristics of a fascist state is a supression of meaningful political opposition and silencing of disenters. last I checked, there is still alot of very vocal opposition to the present administration and disenters are in no danger of being jailed, killed, or otherwise silenced. True enough both houses of Congress at present have Republican majorities. However this was due to a shift in voting patterns of the American public rather than some secret plot to seive power by the evil Bush! Also, if I recall correctly in the past other presidents (Clinton in his first term for example ) have enjoyed a friendly party majority in all three branches of goverment without being accused of setting up a fascist state.

-A true Fascist stae cannot spring from a right of center goverment. The Nazi state (that most famous of all police states) was in fact a mish-mash of far right and far left elements. The term “national Socialist” is very telling in describing that regeim. In any event, the form of goverment we have here in the US with electe representatives governing by consent of a well informed population makes such a development almost impossible.

Your self-described political alighment does not suprise me at all given that you have fallen for the “Bush+Hilter/ america=Nazis” ######. Years of talking politics online has taught me that the political compass varies from place to place and that someone in the UK who describes themself as “slightly left of center” is pretty far left by US standards. As for me, I’m hard right and make no apologies for it.

it is kind of interesting that you are a leftists who plays airsoft. (that is to say an adult leftist….many kids puport to subscribe to leftist ideals almost as a knee jerk reaction due to the fashionable hatred for authority that many have) It has been my reaction that most wargamers (be they miniature wargamers or combat simulation gamers like airsoft players) tend to be right of center were they are political at all. Fantasy gamers on the other hand tend toward the left.

Finally, my slapping you with a bad rep point was not due to the content of your views. You are entitled to be as wrong as anyone else. My problem was that you were disrespectful and petty in the way you went about it. Like I said, even if you don’t respect the man (and let me point out again that I dislike Bush, most of his policies, and don’t think the war was a good idea) I still respect his office and hate seeing others act in sucha churlis manner.

Cheers.

“Trench Raider”

And then mine:

QUOTE

-One of the primary characteristics of a fascist state is a suppression of meaningful political opposition and silencing of disenters. last I checked, there is still alot of very vocal opposition to the present administration and disenters are in no danger of being jailed, killed, or otherwise silenced.

Frankly I consider the treatment of the candidates that stood against Bush to be an example of how far you can go in suppressing opposition in a Democracy.

QUOTE

-A true Fascist stae cannot spring from a right of center goverment. The Nazi state (that most famous of all police states) was in fact a mish-mash of far right and far left elements. The term “national Socialist” is very telling in describing that regeim. In any event, the form of goverment we have here in the US with electe representatives governing by consent of a well informed population makes such a development almost impossible.

Actually the Nazi’s were committed industrialists with an idealist head of state. Kind of like the bush government. To call your population “well informed” is laughable.

QUOTE

Your self-described political alighment does not suprise me at all given that you have fallen for the “Bush+Hilter/ america=Nazis” ######. Years of talking politics online has taught me that the political compass varies from place to place and that someone in the UK who describes themself as “slightly left of center” is pretty far left by US standards. As for me, I’m hard right and make no apologies for it.

I don’t ask you to apologise for being hard-right; it takes all sorts. I can, in some ways, appreciate such a view. As far as the political compass goes, I describe myself exactly where i come and have done for many years

Why do you not try it yourself, I would interested in the answer. Link here

QUOTE

it is kind of interesting that you are a leftists who plays airsoft. (that is to say an adult leftist….many kids puport to subscribe to leftist ideals almost as a knee jerk reaction due to the fashionable hatred for authority that many have) It has been my reaction that most wargamers (be they miniature wargamers or combat simulation gamers like airsoft players) tend to be right of center were they are political at all. Fantasy gamers on the other hand tend toward the left.

You need to stop thinking in just the terms of right and left. Whilst I am not quite the eco-warrior, my training in various martial arts, my degree in Philosophy and my childhood have left me with the personality type INTj, and in general we are quite capable of aggression. Airsoft (or at least CQB) is founded on being in touch with your courage and aggression. On that front I have no problems whatsoever. I also play war games (online, I am a member of an American Gaming Guild)

QUOTE

Finally, my slapping you with a bad rep point was not due to the content of your views. You are entitled to be as wrong as anyone else. My problem was that you were disrespectful and petty in the way you went about it.

I have no problem with the actual rep since I have plenty to spare. Because rep points are a mark of popularity; nothing more, and the only two negative ones are from Hissing Sid and yourself, I am frankly inclined to see them both as “marks of honour”. In other words; I don’t care if I upset you.

What I do care about is you neg repping me without posting in the topic. This “ninja” neg-repping is unfair as I cannot in good judgement neg you back (should I wish to) nor can we actually discuss what is your issue and reach and understanding. This is a loss.

Cheers

Basho.

We shall see if he replies!

Basho

UPDATE: His reply…

[quote]Frankly I consider the treatment of the candidates that stood against Bush to be an example of how far you can go in suppressing opposition in a Democracy.[/quote]

Since you don’t give speific exmple here I assume you are talking about the way Kerry was treated in thr last election. I woud harldly call pointing out his inconsistancies, his voting record, the questionable nature of his military service, and his shameful behavior after Vietnam to be “supressing democracy”. On the contrary, it helps the public make an informed judgement regarding who they were voting for.

Speaking of supressing democracy, I’M not the one who lives in a country with unjust “hate speach” laws that are used to supress unpopular political figures….

[quote]Actually the Nazi’s were committed industrialists with an idealist head of state. Kind of like the bush government. [/quote]

That’s reaching at best. You leftists will try to any stretch of logic to compare your political enemies to the undeniable evils of the Nazi state. But it simply aint so. The Nazi state had a good deal of far left beliefs and programs both economic and social that have no counterpart in the US of today. Once again, I also point out that disenters were killed or jailed uder that goverment, while they thrive here.

[quote]To call your population “well informed” is laughable.[/quote]

As well informed as your country’s people….. probably more so given that our media is not goverment controlled. Look, while the majorty of americans are indeed woefully apathetic regarding politics and foreign afares those who care abot such things tends to be very well informed due to the wide variety of information sources and tools available to them.

[quote]I don’t ask you to apologise for being hard-right; it takes all sorts. [/quote]

Nor do I regarding you being a leftist. As I stated, we all have the right to be wrong.

[quote]Why do you not try it yourself, I would interested in the answer. [/quote]

I am quite familiar with that political alignment test and have taken it before. I tend to wind up about halfway up the right side of the graph. I’ll retake it and forward a pic of the actual standing if you care that much.

[quote[You need to stop thinking in just the terms of right and left. [/quote]

not really. While there are many anomilies (spelling) in the left-right system and were the center actually lies can vary from place to place and from person to person it remains a handy shorthand to describe and understand a person’s political and world view.

[quote]Whilst I am not quite the eco-warrior, my training in various martial arts, my degree in Philosophy and my childhood have left me with the personality type INTj, and in general we are quite capable of aggression. Airsoft (or at least CQB) is founded on being in touch with your courage and aggression. On that front I have no problems whatsoever. I also play war games (online, I am a member of an American Gaming Guild)[/quote]

Heh. At least you did not say “I’m practicing for the revolution” or something like that! But the fact remains (at least here in the US) leftist wargamers are the exception rather than the rule.

[quote]I have no problem with the actual rep since I have plenty to spare. Because rep points are a mark of popularity; nothing more, and the only two negative ones are from Hissing Sid and yourself, I am frankly inclined to see them both as “marks of honour”. [/quote]

Ugg. Then I’m bad company as I never cared for that guy. honestly, I’m glad he’s gone.

[quote] In other words; I don’t care if I upset you.[/quote]

That’s a good attitude to have. We are both nothing more than disembodies voices speaking across the ‘net. We live worlds apart and will likely never meet or have any impact what so ever on each other’s lives. why would we care what the other thought? I regard things that ocur on the ‘net as almost meaningless.

[quote]What I do care about is you neg repping me without posting in the topic. This “ninja” neg-repping is unfair as I cannot in good judgement neg you back (should I wish to) nor can we actually discuss what is your issue and reach and understanding. This is a loss. [/quote]

A bit of explanation is probably in order. I stumbled across the thread in question and your rude post quite by accident. I don’t regularly read the off topic forum as I get my discusion of politics and current events from blogs mostly. I was doing a search looking for the guy with the offensive and disrespectful “Village Idiot” sig line when I found your post. I took the acion I felt the post needed. I did not comment on the thread in question as it was an old thread and I know “thread necromancy” is frowned upon. Perhaps I need to pop into the political discussion on the off topic forum more often to give it a little more balance.

“Trench Raider”

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Basho & Cesca are traveling with:

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